Our "Where Are They Now?" series has received a popular response, and we don't know a band who has received more inquiries than Vengeance Rising. As with any band, there are really five stories to tell, but we will focus on the frontman who took the band over in 1991, after the other four guys left to form Die Happy. That frontman is Roger Martinez.

A few readers have received letters from Roger over the years, one in particular that we call the "f-word letter," due to its repeated profanity, in which he bemoaned the fact that he was "treated wrong" by his record company and other Christians he knew. While many thought his complaints to be compelling and crying for a story, we have declined all these years for two major reasons: One, we didn't want to give a pulpit to a madman (as Roger was basically raving mad, with an emphasis on the raving part!); and Two, we felt like the facts we had gathered showed Roger to be a very bad guy, and we thought there would be no benefit to uncover him publically. With that in mind, some may wonder, "Why do a story now?"

The impetus for this story can be credited to Ted Kirkpatrick of Tourniquet. Like many that Roger knew, Ted received a phone call a year or two ago, begging for money. Thinking to himself, "I'll probably never see this money again, but at least Roger will know that someone is willing to help," he lent Roger $150.00. Well, out of the blue last Summer, Ted received another phone call from a very calm and lucid individual -- Roger Martinez, who offered to meet Ted for lunch and pay him back the money he borrowed.

Since he no longer seemed to be raving, but was very cordial, lucid and calm, we thought we would do an interview with Roger and get his perspective on where he is now with his spiritual beliefs. We knew it would be kind of a "This is what an atheist believes" type article, and we thought it would explain what made this prolific preacher of the Gospel a crusader for non-belief, as well as offer insight into an atheist's mind (kind of like the way our "So & So Sez" stories sometimes turn out). The following was written with no small amount of prayer, and in humility...

"Basically, I came to atheism," explains Roger, "and it happened over a series of years. As you guys knew me, I was doing what you guys are now doing, which is propagating a belief system. And at the time, of course, we all claimed that it was on fact. One of the places that I was baptized at was at the International Church of the Foursquare Gospel in Los Angeles. It was the world headquarters for the modern Pentecostal movement. I was living with the secretary of the heir to the movement. During that time, even when I was with Sanctuary, I did a four-part series on the healing issue. As I was personally investigating it, what I continually and simply found out was that it is all fraud.

"I was personally indoctrinated, like most Americans were, into believing that this God existed, because in 1955 somebody had the brilliant idea of putting "In God We Trust" on the money, so that by the time I was born in 1962 the country was in a religious frenzy. I was into indoctrination centers, and basically did the whole Pledge of Allegiance, 'one nation under God,' and of course, our perspective is that not only is there no god, but that's a very unhealthy psychiatric thing to impose upon children.

"So, the point being, when I began looking into what was happening with the healings, there are no people who were crippled who are walking. There are no people who were blind who see. There are no people who were deaf who hear, no people with dismembered limbs who have been healed -- although these claims are being made that AIDS has been healed and cancer's been healed and all of these other types of things. The bottom line is that it's fraud, and what's happening right now, atheism as a whole is beginning to coordinate worldwide in socially valuable manners, and express a positive atheism that can educate people.

"Here I was slandering people, basically because on several occasions, I was in a very bigoted and biased social environment, like 'Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers.' And these types of things aren't healthy for a society. So, when I came to my atheism, which again, was through a number of things, the main thing was healing. What it really boils down to for me, is that we, as human beings, have to live in this world together. My goal, at least, I believed at the time I was doing the whole Christian thing, was that it was for the best of mankind. And having come to my point of faith right now, I'd say it's even far superior for mankind, because it's based first on reality, and second, that it deals with a world view that can encompass the entire world's population in a cognitive and very cohesive manner that can address the issues, such as the Oklahoma City bombing. That was a Jesus bombing. The guy is a religionist, and that's gonna be brought out. It was that City of Zion that they belong to. It was a Christian thing just like the Ku Klux Klan, when they hung black people, the whole thing with the slaves, 'Love your master, obey your master,' you know. And these things are basically social engineering tools that unfortunately, even today, are still being used to jack with people."

(Ed: Attempts to argue with some of these points via email have not been responded to. Points like the unfairness of comparing pure Christianity with polluted and unbiblical doctrines of groups like the KKK; and the intrinsic racism in evolution, which is an atheist's only explanation for man's origin.)

One of the rumors we had heard about Roger was that he was never a Christian at all, who, as a Sanctuary pastor and Christian band spokesperson, was "only putting on a show for money." There is also the theological argument about "true, saving faith" versus "professing faith." When asked about the sincerity of his belief at that time, he responded with the explanation of: "I would say I was definitely what we would call schizophrenic. I did believe that there was a god who existed. I did believe that we were able to communicate with this god by means of the written word, and there were obviously claims of people who claim to have heard. So, I was indeed genuinely as schizophrenic -- and this is point blank -- as you are. And it's not a derogatory manner. It's just a simple psychiatric evaluation. I believed in something that definitely was not real, although I believed it to be real.

"I'm telling you, had you been born in Iran, you would have believed Allah to be God, and Muhammad His prophet. I'm telling you, you would go to death for that belief, because you would believe that anybody who attached Jesus as a Trinitarian in the Godhead was a condemned infidel to the Hell fires. And of course, in your perspective right now, they're condemned to the Hell fires for denying Jesus as the Christ. So, yes, I was truly in that belief at the time."

It is interesting that the label of "schizophrenic" has been used here, as this is not a term that one simply wakes up one day and applies to himself. It is very similar to the way belief in God was officially treated in the Atheist State of the former USSR, where Christians were sentenced to mental hospitals.

Roger's current worldview seems to allow for the peaceful coexistence with Christians, unless they cross the line of labeling people infidels or sinners."People will continue to believe that (Christianity). As so, they can certainly function in a tax-paying society; it's when it crosses the line into harm that I find error with it, as I was personally guilty of. So, for instance, what I'm doing is writing back all the people whom I slandered, about whom I said, ?These people are either anti-Christ, or wolves in sheep's clothing,' or this or that, who I had no right to do that to. They are simply human beings who are benevolent themselves, who have families, who have no right to have that without even an address. That's like when I went and saw my face plastered on a screen by some guy that claimed that we had some satanic ritual on the end of the first Vengeance album, and he had confirmed that. And again, that type of stuff should not be allowed in a healthy society, because first of all, it's defamation of character. And second of all, it's based upon a ludicrous imposition of thought, based upon a book that is so full of irrationalities that it's incredible."

This is another concept at the heart of atheism -- that the Bible is an error-filled collection of myths. Roger bases his mistrust of Scripture in his failed search to find actual remaining original manuscripts from the New Testament. "They don't exist," he states matter-of-factly. He goes on to explain what the agenda is for his new-found belief system: "Atheism is now beginning to have a formulation of putting together manners in which society can see the benefits, and that atheists are not people who are possessed by some devils, but rather, they're humans who have the same genuine concern and emotions as other people. And they just simply prefer to benefit mankind through a rational perspective in the here and now, versus some after-life after death; which again, is just absurd. It doesn't exist. When you die, when your brain ceases to exist, that's it, bro. It's over. And you have no evidence otherwise, other than a fictional tale that's happened with somebody. But I'll tell you, there's more than one of those tales."

It would have been fun to debate Roger on the validity of Scripture and moral absolutes if we had been afforded more time, but this conversation predominantly featured one person's viewpoint and was cut short due to Roger's time constraints. It was interesting to see my objections and points about the absolute wrong of murder countered with a list of the atrocities performed in the name of God by misguided or unauthentic Christians through the ages (American slavery, Crusades, etc.). It was quite a challenge to argue with one who was formerly regarded as quite an astute apologist and well-read man. It's almost mind-blowing to fathom how someone with so much apparent regard for the authenticity of Scripture and the existence of God could now flip- flop entirely. It certainly inspires one to sharpen one's skill in "giving an answer for the hope that is within," but it also shows the limitations of apologetics itself.

While many can debate and blow away atheists in public and private debate (check out the taped debates between atheist Dr. Gordon Stein and Greg Bahnsen), apologetics most often work to reaffirm a believer who questions why he believes something and has an answer there to fill the question's hole, without needing to return there again. As much as it can cause someone to think, apologetics perhaps does more for the believer than the non-believer. Many reading this have probably been in a heated debate or two that was not resolved with repentance by either party, so was this conversation unable to open Roger's eyes to the fallacy of atheism and the rational sense of Christianity. Then again, we did not expect to convince someone in 60 minutes what has taken a few years to adopt.

So, what is Roger's next move? He is going to release an album under the name Vengeance Rising sometime in July (called Realms of Blasphemy), and plans on releasing a CD-Rom report called "The Lixivium Letters," which is "an expose of religious fraud" that will surely be a heavily-documented and researched study that makes a case against the existence of God. "It's gonna be a good forum for me to address it amongst the people who have had the past albums," explains Roger, "and the people who were actually deceived into believing the nonsense that I propagated back then." For each teaching tape that Roger ever released as a Sanctuary pastor, he will release a " counter tape to the parroting that I was doing." Musically, the new album will be of the grind/death/black metal variety or, as Roger describes: "good ole Deicide/Slayer thrash."

What is our response to this news? We (in conjunction with our local church leadership -- Mission Hills Church -- as well as Pastor Bob at Sanctuary, and Glenn Kaiser at JPUSA) sadly but firmly implore you to avoid this album and have nothing to do with it. We are not going to the mainstream public and attempt to boycot this anti-Christian album done under the name Vengeance Rising (which would only sell more albums for Roger ? like some of the current hub-ub surrounding Marilyn Manson and the resultant ticket and album sales). We are simply attempting to do some "in-house" family business here and just warn all Christians to stay away from this project.

A common reaction to this pronouncement might be, "Well, why?" To which the obvious answer would be, "Why do you want to expose yourself to a sales pitch for atheism?" The Apostle Paul didn't make any bones about these kinds of people in his letter to Titus: "Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned." These steps have been taken with Roger and have been met with rejection. Our loving response is not to coddle or enable, but to rebuke and firmly refuse to have anything to do with. The Vengeance Rising we knew and loved is dead. Unless Roger Martinez turns from his ways to His Loving Father in Heaven, it shall remain dead and seen as an unbelieving and divisive person.

We know it takes courage and a willingness to put to death that curiosity to check this album out, but any true call of God also comes with the grace and strength to accomplish the task. Anyone wishing to "reach out" to Roger will benefit by first talking to their pastor about this kind of situation. Show him this issue and ask him for advice. With this pronouncement of warning also comes a call to pray ? not a license to gossip, but to earnestly pray for Roger's soul, mind, and spirit.

Like the potential of any "Where Are They Now?" story, this one ends on a sad note; but it doesn't have to stay that way. Remember that our prayers are conversations with the Living God Who is active in the world today.